Former Colombo family associate Larry Mazza says he now believes top brass in the family knew for years that Greg Scarpa Sr. was cooperating with the FBI—and used him for their own benefit. Speaking on the premiere episode of the American Made podcast, Mazza recalled being told in prison by Allie Boy Persico that he and his father, longtime Colombo boss Carmine “Junior” Persico, had known about Scarpa’s secret life for 20 years. “I tend to lean that way, especially if Allie Boy told me what he told me,” Mazza said.
“They used him. They used each other. ”
Mazza acknowledged that he initially refused to believe rumors that Scarpa, his mentor and the man he sat beside for years, was an informant. He described being called into attorney Joe Bonanno’s office during the Colombo war and warned that there were rumors Scarpa talked to the feds.
“I said, ‘That’s ridiculous. How could you say something like that? ’” Mazza recalled. “We got up and we left.
”
He only accepted the truth after seeing Scarpa plead before a judge in open court, reportedly saying he had done so much for the government that he thought he could go home. The judge responded that he read the newspapers. “Now I couldn’t deny it,” Mazza said. “What was I going to do now?
They were right. ”
Mazza also addressed comments made by Scarpa’s son, Gregory Scarpa Jr. , who recently said in an interview that he would have killed his father if he had known what he was doing. “I don’t doubt that,” Mazza said.
“I’ve said if I knew and Jimmy knew, it would have been our duty to take him out. ”
But Mazza pushed back on what he called contradictions in Gregory’s account, noting that Gregory has also tried to defend his father by insisting he never testified against anyone in the family. “You can’t have it both ways,” he said. “He is what he was.
You said you would have killed him. Leave it at that. ”
During the conversation, Mazza also discussed a Mark Wahlberg film about Scarpa, titled By Any Means, centered on his role in the search for the bodies of civil rights workers in Mississippi. Mazza said he is curious to see how the movie portrays Scarpa’s actions, noting that no one was present for the worst of it.
“Nobody was there with him. So that’s imagination,” Mazza said. “I was told he did unspeakable things. I’m curious to see what Mark Wahlberg does with that scene.
”
He questioned the trailer’s inclusion of a Black FBI agent, saying he had never heard of one involved in the case and suggesting the film may be playing the race card. He also noted that the real search reportedly required more than one visit to a single source, contrary to what the trailer suggests. Mazza also recalled a prison card game with Greg Scarpa Sr. and Lucchese family figure Anthony “Gaspipe” Casso, where both men appeared to joke about having fixers on the inside.
He said Casso knew about the two corrupt NYPD detectives linked to his crew, while Scarpa referenced his own FBI connections. “Where would I get that term from? ” Mazza said of the conversation. “They both knew.
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He discussed an altercation between Gregory Scarpa Jr. and former Lucchese boss Vic Amuso in federal prison, saying he heard a firsthand account from an inmate who was present. Amuso allegedly threatened Scarpa’s family, including his children, and Scarpa responded violently. “He got what he asked for,” Mazza said.
“He got a beat. You don’t talk to a guy like that about his kids, especially if he’s in there for 20 years. ”
Mazza said he has heard three different versions of the fight and believes Scarpa handled the situation the way a “Wimpy Boy” raised in that life would. He also said he does not believe Scarpa voluntarily checked into solitary confinement afterward.
Reflecting on the question of who knew about Scarpa’s cooperation, Mazza argued that suspicion alone would have been enough in that world. He pointed to the killing of Joe Brewster, who he said was killed based on suspicion he might become an informant. “Other guys got killed because somebody dreamed he was a rat,” Mazza said. “If they suspected it, that’s almost enough in that life.
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He compared the situation to Whitey Bulger, whose politician brother claimed not to know about his FBI ties, even though the two were reportedly in business together. “What’s easier to believe and what’s harder to believe? ” Mazza asked. “Did they know, or were they that foolish and naive to not see it for 30 years?
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Mazza also recalled how he initially heard about Scarpa’s cooperation while in custody. He said Vic Amuso told him first, and he became so upset that he went after him, threatening another war for calling his boss a rat. Within days, the news was public and Scarpa had admitted to working with the government. Mazza said he moved his bed away from other inmates and later learned from Allie Boy that the Persicos had allegedly known for two decades.
“That’s when my whole mind frame changed,” he said. “No more Mr. Loyalty. I said, ‘I got to worry about myself.
’”
He opened up about his own financial dealings under Scarpa, saying he intentionally kicked up just enough to remain credible as an earner. His primary business was bookmaking, and he also ran a loansharking operation funded partly with Scarpa’s money, paying one point while collecting three from borrowers. “I was very ethical and loyal at first,” Mazza said. “But I saw the way that life really was, so I didn’t kick that much up.
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On the question of the FBI agent seen in a photo escorting Vic Arena from the war era, Mazza told a remarkable small-world story. That agent, Lucian Gandolfo, walked into his supper club two decades later with no idea who owned it. “I said, ‘You don’t recognize me. Do you know who I am?
’” Mazza recalled. “He says, ‘You look familiar. ’ I says, ‘Larry Mazza. ’ He went, ‘Oh my god, I was on your case.
’”
The two later became friends, and Gandolfo has appeared on Mazza’s show. Mazza also shared memories of Hugh “Apples” McIntosh, Carmine Persico’s Irish bodyguard and lifelong friend. He said Scarpa described McIntosh as genuinely tough, and he compared the real-life Irishman favorably to Frank Sheeran, whose story was told in The Irishman. “Comparing him to Frank Sheeran is a joke,” Mazza said.
“You want to do a story about the Irishman, it’s Hugh McIntosh. ”
McIntosh was convicted in the 1985–86 Colombo family trial, served 10 years, violated parole in 1997 and died in federal medical prison that November at age 70. Asked whether he ever wished he had joined a different crew or family, Mazza said no. He said he was loyal to the Wimpy Boys and stayed with them to the end.
“I don’t want to be with Gotti. Gaspipe and them? Nope. Tommy Karate?
No, thank you,” he said. “I was in a good spot, and that’s why we fought that war and stayed where we were. ”
He also touched on his decades in prison, describing how he adapted when weight equipment was taken away by buying 30 one-pound cans of fruit in a mesh bag to use as dumbbells. He walked the track, played handball and softball, and once had sports glasses smuggled in during a visit.
“I got hit 12 times in a row after I got them,” he recalled, describing a bases-loaded line drive that tied a game. Mazza also showed a chain he wears with a Christ head and Saint Anthony medal, explaining that his son gave him the Saint Anthony pendant in a visiting room years ago after repeatedly grabbing the cross Mazza had received from his uncle. Early in the show, Mazza acknowledged the recent death of Gregory Scarpa Jr. ’s sister, who had been battling cancer.
He offered condolences to the family and praised her as a good person. “No matter what everybody feels about each other, she’s gone and that’s sickening,” he said.
